Thanks, dude! This partly made my choice :-)

But you should probably find out what the reason is for not adding them, and what the alternaitve is (tags). Personally I don’t miss subtasks.

To be honest, I’d the option of using subtasks myself, although there are other features I’d give a higher priority to.

Most of my projects can be done using Nozbe as it stands. It might be that people with very complex projects would be better off with project management software rather than a GTD system.

If I could control Nozbe development, the first thing I do is get the basic features of GTD finished – having a way to handle single tasks outside of projects, a home for someday/maybe items and handling ticklers for example.

Better email integration, keyboard shortcuts, off-line version, build further on the excellent Evernote integration (be able to assign Evernote notes to individual tasks as well as projects) would all be higher on my list than subtasks.

Of course, if it was possible to include subtask support easily and quickly, this should (in the best GTD tradition) have been done by now.

IMO because everyone has different needs, it is impossible to design GTD software that is going to keep everyone happy – it’s a case of trying the different systems out there until you find one that comes close for you.

Personally, even though there are improvements I’d love to see, I’m much more organized and productive with Nozbe than I was before.

I’m with you on wanting sub-projects. I understand the rationale, but even google has capitulated on this—there’s currently subfolder capabilities within gmail labels. I think having project templates and subprojects would help enormously—not only in organizing time, but also to shorten the gargantuon list project list on the left side of the screen. Did they really rule this option out for good?

Michael, this is very disappointing. I’ve worked very efficiently with subprojects before, because I have limited the number of nested levels, and because I tend to think hierarchically. Having a program that mirrors how I think makes my work more efficiently. You are assuming a position of greater knowledge than your users about *what works best for us, as individuals. Some of us despise subprojects; others thrive on them. Your response essentially says, “I know better than you do about how you work.” This is offensive, especially since you admit that it would be easy to create subprojects in Nozbe, but that “it’s not going to happen.” Although I truly love Nozbe, the constant bugs, the inability to set a deadline for revisions and actually stick to it, the expense, and the lack of confidence I feel when reading the beta-testers feedback about the iphone app, makes me seriously rethink my investment. You simply do not know better than I do about how I work. Why can’t you make this an option, and those of us who like subprojects can use them, and those of us who do not can ignore the feature? I’m surprised by your condescending tone—I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not trying to be rude, but the lack of flexibility or understanding on your part comes across as very disappointing.

Michael,
I’m half-way through reading Rework by the guys at 37signals. Just wanted to say I admire your drive to keep it simple and stay focused on the purpose of your product. Keep it up.

Irrespective to the topic at hand, why some people have this sense of entitlement when it comes to software astounds me. Your paying for software, your don’t like it, don’t pay for it. Demanding features or information on future development is ridiculous! The fact that Micheal is active in contributing and communicating with his customers seems to have the unfortunate side effect of creating this perception of entitlement.

In regard to the topic at hand, it’s obvious that people don’t know what they are talking about.

- google doesn’t have subfolders, they changed a few of the inteface options of labels to make it similar to folders to reduce the learning curve.

- Folders are NOT a better option than the existing label/tag system.

Put in a small amount of effort, learn to use tags, know that they are working on improving the interface of tags and you will discover that you have the same functionality plus more.

Or simply find some software that suits your purpose elsewhere, stop wasting time demanding things your not going to get.

Jay

Yes, labels are better than folders. But I’m referring to projects here. Goggle does have nested labels now—check it out under email/settings/labs. If I’m shelling out hard-earned $, I do feel entitled to request features. And finally, I did find a much better app: doit.im. Great interface, syncs beautiffully, and it’s always going to be free, so Im OK if it with it’s limitations.

On Sub-Projects:

I am taking the time to write this with the hope that I can help effect Nozbe’s quick evolution into a standard-setting, commercial success.

I have been looking for a grownup’s GTD-informed, projects management system or set of integrated tools, which syncs between Google and Android and Mac OSX, for a year. It has been painful. Nozbe/Evernote could be it. It’s very close.

For those of us who have the capacity and desire to handle multiple projects – I am a retired Wall Street executive with a strong technology background, now focusing on volunteer efforts – organizing tools are essential.

The classic Work Breakdown Structure, as taught through the venerable Project Management Institute and widely utilized, is a natural way to organize a project. It is no more complex than an outline. For example (simplified and truncated here), on a recent project I could quickly state the high-level items. I knew that if I accomplished those, we would be successful. Then I added some of the second-level items, adding more as I thought of them. Some required further drilling and levels:
I. Engage a road engineer. A. Draft requirements. B. Get feedback. C. Identify candidates. i. Identify knowledgeable, local sources. ii. Request suggestions. iii. Compile responses. iv. Etc. D. Draft RFP. E. Etc.
II. Engage a municipal attorney.
III. Create road use laws, permits, and agreements.

Higher level items are complete when their lower level items are complete. At the task level, GTD kicks in.

I’m open to new ways of thinking and doing, but I’m not getting how tags and labels do anything but increase my overhead and cloud my ability to actually get stuff done.

Michael’s theological zeal would be delightful if accompanied by responsiveness. But I fear his ego’s need to be right may prevent his success. Clearly talented and meticulous, he could build anything. Why not listen to the customers?

Paul Hindes
sednih@gmail.com
+1.845.468.5408

Well said, Paul. I use tags/labels for all of my photos and even for my pdf collection of research articles. With projects, which typically follow a temporal sequence, it is useful to organize them hierarchically by phase, steps, etc. But the larger issue, and the one that bothers me the most, is the “not gonna happen” attitude toward paying customers. Nozbe is terrific, and Michael is a visionary on so many levels. That’s why this lack of flexibility really bothers me—it’s top-down management, which would be fine if (a) weren’t paying for the service; or (b) weren’t paying for an app that has been a thinly-disguised beta version for the past year. I think that those who are disenchanted with Nozbe have a longer history with it. They waited and waited and waited for v.2.0, had many false starts, and basically had to wait as v1.0’s functionality was slowly restored—over a period of months! To make matters worse, there has NOT BEEN A FUNCTIONAL IPHONE APP since June 2009! So even though 2.0 isn’t called beta, it truly is beta. And we’re paying full price for a work in progress, and then have our requests rudely dismissed. I prepaid for a 2 year subscription prior to knowing the mess that would follow—I believed Michael would stick to deadlines and deliver on promises. With 1 year left, I want out, but I have a feeling a refund for the unused year is “not going to happen.”

Bummer, Dr. Joe. As I feared. Thank you for the perspective. I appreciate very much that you responded. I won’t be checking back in as frequently. Moving on … – Paul

Hi Delfina: Thanks for your response; I appreciate it.

I didn’t ask to be a beta tester because it’s not why I’m using this service. I work long hours, have young kids at home, and don’t want to add another “project” to my list. Also, beta testers who subscribe to Nozbe are essentially “paying” to volunteer. I signed up for Nozbe and paid for 2 years in order to USE a functional program, not help test it so that it BECOMES functional later on. Worse still, why should we then have to BUY the new iphone app, if we’re paying for Nozbe now and it doesn’t work?

I do find Michael’s stance to be inflexible. “It’s not going to happen”: where’s the flexibility in that? Michael said that it would be very easy to implement subproject functionality, so why not allow users the option of having subprojects? No one has to use them if they don’t like that system, but for those of us who do, we’re not given the choice.

Finally, regarding claims of rudeness, I was too harsh in my estimation. I follow the blogs and Michael’s writings daily, and I don’t think he’s trying to be rude. I believe he cares about his customers, and his product. I was reacting more to his bluntness and the refusal, so I apologize for that.

I think my disappointment stems not so much from the subprojects issue per se (although that’s become the last straw), but rather from the accumulation of issues that have arisen since 2.0 came out—about 10 months ago. All software, apps, and online programs are “works in progress” that require fine-tuning and updates, but I never expected Nozbe to have so many. I think the worst part for me is the disappointment. I was a HUGE Nozbe fan, but now I’m burnt out.

I agree with Paul Hindes.

Michael’s militant position on sub-folders is bogus. Because I love sub-projects SO much, I called the David Allen Company to straighten the issue out and to make sure that I wasn’t somehow hurting my productivity with my sub-folders. I emailed back and forth with one of their coaches and also spoke to the director of coaching services on the phone. The answer that I got was basically “yeah sure, if it works for you then go ahead”. In fact, the Outlook add-in that is one of two software options that are given the designation of being GTD Enabled uses sub-folders as one of its main features (Nozbe is not GTD Enabled, if you were not aware). However, this did come with a word of caution about sub-folders. For somewhat obvious reasons, your tasks can get lost with multiple levels of sub-folders, I get it. So, basically the official advise is if you are somebody who gets lost in a sea of sub-folders DON’T USE THEM. But to not allow me to use them because you can’t keep it straight seems like plain arrogance. So, Michael, if you are reading this… You are not doing us some terrific service by not allowing this function. All you are really doing is losing money because you want to tell everyone what is good for them. This is lame!

Tom Siegel

@Tom

I am very curious. Which Outlook add-in is it that you are referring to?

@pegazuz

It is made by Netcentrics you can get to it from David Allen’s Recommended Software page here: http://www.davidco.com/vettedsoftware.

thanks. will check it out.

To me it seems like nozbe aint getting things done.. They have many shiney ideas, but no execution game. Why building this mac/windows app that will be on beta for ever when the future is browser-based-applications? Why not focus on adding the gtd features such as waiting-for or some-day-maybe or improving the team-functions(it sucks with 4 million task in my calender that aint mine..). Heck, even adding a few line of code to filter next-actions(ihpone) or calender-times would be better..

Many ideas and a lot of new starting points that never will be finished.. Plus no focus in creating a community, only Michael powering his ideas to the table..

@BrageStrand:

I think there is much in what you say.

I too don’t really understand all the effort going into Windows and Mac apps when the product itself could be improved and the Android app continues to unimpress most and needs serious work. And a beta adding new functionality spells uncontrolled difficulty to me.

Re Michael and brining ideas to the table. He’s the boss and the disparate unfinished beta nature of so much here is down to him. They should concentrate on Web, Android and iPhone apps and get them nailed and fully functioning. Then if they want to go do a linux app (where their latest dev effort seems to have gone – bonkers) and sort out the other Windows and Mac ones then so be it. I’m a paid subscriber but don’t actively use anymore for the lack of a functional Android solution and so only look in from time to time now. Account is most definitely set not to renew. I think its a shame – Nozbe had a lead but have squandered it.

I also struggle with the general tone of Nozbe set by Michael. Its kind of summed up for me by his describing the Android app, falling all over the place for many at that time, as “The best Android App ever”. So disconnected from reality, so unquestioning of the technical team beneath him. I’m sure they are bright and able but you need active management and milestones or you just deliver beta after beta and then decide to have a great idea of enhancing functionality and build further beta code on an unfinished beta base.

Elsewhere, in the summer, I put up that I didn’t see the Android App being finished before Christmas and Nozbe duly sounded horrified and talked about it all being sorted out by late Summer. Of course its not happened. Christmas is 6 weeks away and I doubt it will be reliable or have the missing functionality in by then. Those looking for an early end to the beta around Windows/Mac/Linux apps might well ponder Nozbe’s track record.

For someone who claims to have the ultimate “GTD” app. you sure don’t seem to make much progress Michael.

Great! How often do he take time to reply to discussions?

How about this?
http://www.gtdfun.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/subtask.png

I have to agree with the sentiments of this thread. Nozbe’s starting to feel like an ever-growing collection of half-finished projects to me. One of the only reasons I’m hanging on is the promise of some of the new features in the pipeline. If they don’t start appearing soon (in a roadmap at the very least) I think I’ll be switching.

“I have to agree with the sentiments of this thread. Nozbe’s starting to feel like an ever-growing collection of half-finished projects to me.”

It is odd really that the only thing that Nozbe do that is not in beta is the browser version (the iPhone stuff is not in beta either, but done by others – thank goodness). But the browser version does not seem to be being developed – instead we hear increasingly that new functionality will be incorporated in the unfinished desktop app. But that’s at version 6 and nothing I read encourages a view of a mature and tested platform – indeed according to the development blog they really sweat about making sure a Linux version is out there – amazing given all the great things they could do for users. Android is at beta version 1.5 and again you don’t see anything that encourages a view that they are really on top of functionality or platform reliability. Its like they embarked on it all without properly doing their homework and planning appropriately.

So the good bit of Nozbe is undeveloped and the future seems to lay in endless betas and Nozbe struggling to deliver. Never mind, to quote the Nozbe boss: “Stay tuned, we’re almost there! – You’ll love it.” And just to add extra spice it now seems that Nozbe is managed without email (latest blog). If it were managed well I’d listen but I don’t see that at all. Sorry but I really don’t.

To all of the NOZBE team,

Thank you for all of the personal attention and feedback; so greatly appreciated and a refreshing, common-sense approach to product support. Press on and do not ever be discouraged, you are doing a great job. Mark

Great job, Michael and team. Thank you for increasing my productivity!!

Check lists are good, I hope you do that! But you really should reconsider the subproject idea.

Oh! I am excited for checklists, that will be very helpful! Whoot!

I currently use mindmaps to ‘map out’ subprojects and then use nozbe to create the actions that need to be performed in a subproject in order to acheive the goal/vision I’ve associated with the purpose of creating this subproject to begin with.

Mike — would like to see the ability to adjust colors in Nozbe. Also, more icons for context and project creation.

I’m sure that they’ll be useful for some purposes, but not as a substitute for sub-tasks. The main problem with items in a check list is that they aren’t real tasks. If you can’t assign contexts to the check list items, it will limit the ways in which they can be used. If you can assign contexts to them, then you might as well add sub-tasks instead.

Since making the above post, I’ve had an idea for a way to turn a check-list into something that could work as a substitute for sub-tasks or sub-projects.

If a task that has a check-list is converted into a project, the check-list items should become tasks for the new project.

What do you think? It’s probably not for everybody, but it would definitely help me out. And since the check-list is already being considered, I’m hoping that something like this would be seen as a reasonable request.

After getting a new iPhone from my company, I just took the plunge and subscribed to Nozbe after years of trying to implement(not very well)GTD via Outlook and BlackBerry—the first thing I noticed was that there is no option to create a simple checklist. I was hopeful I could move away from my paper checklists, and non-integrated lists in outlook ‘notes’ which I use frequently to pack for business trips, and to do my GTD weekly review tasks such as remembering to back up files and emails, etc. I would really like the ability to add a checklist as a stand alone item, or as a list of permanent tasks under a re-usable project title that I could name “business trip packing list”

Nevermind, I see that I can simply create a Note under a Project or in the Inbox, etc.— I should become more familiar before commenting… (though I think an actual checklist function as mentioned by Delfina on 12/20 above is certainly still a very fine idea)

I used to have complex tasks with sub-taks. I agree with Michael, you can spend too much time “doing the structure” and not doing the tasks.

My take on Nozbe, as a new user, is that the Evernote linking and ability to write notes directly within tasks beats sub-tasks hands down.

Where a task is ongoing, or complex, I can write notes about the process AND record details I might need for another time AND put it Evernote for anyone to be able to access or comment.

With tags as well… no, I don’t need subtasks.

Way to go Michael for sticking to your guns. i like the fact that you refuse to add subtasks, because you don’t believe in them. I was contemplating yours and another program, and you remind me of myself – regarding doing what you want and ignoring those who have different opinions – so I’m going with Nozbe. Regarding your customer’s opinions about your decisions: “Those who care don’t matter, and those who matter don’t care”